Talk:Sexuality
Star Trek and sexuality We all know that Star Trek is fictional. But it also deals with problems that we have today in its fictional way. One of the problemens, Star Trek never talked about much is homosexuality. I would say we should start an article about Star Trek and (homo)sexuality. Which characters throughout the series are visibly gay/lesbian charcters? -- (unsigned) :How many characters would that be? At the moment I can't think of any single one that was definitely homesexual since, as you said, Trek pretty much avoided this issue. I don't think this deserves an own article at the moment... -- Cid Highwind 12:31, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Alternate universe Ezri was a lesbian, alternate universe Kira was bisexual, openly. That's at least 2 characters. I remember Lt. Hawk, who was supposed to be the first "official" gay character on Star Trek. Once Robert Beltran said in an interview, that Cmdr. Chakotay is gay, too. I know that this all is not canon but I would say it is part of the Star Trek philosophiy how the series deal with gayness. Such an article is a good idea... -- (unsigned) :Any potential hints about Hawk's sexual preference were cut or removed from the script (he is described as being gay in the novels, though, for example the recent "Taking Wing") and Chakotay ended up in some sort of relationship with Seven. I'd say that both would be valid additions to the characters' articles (Background section, if there is a valid resource to be cited), but not nearly enough to warrant an own article. -- Cid Highwind 13:49, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Agree. If there's a canon source it can be cited, or if there is reliable info it can be placed as background. Otherwise that sort of article isn't relevant to Memory-Alpha which only deals what has actually been portrayed, and is more relevant to a site about Trek in general than a site dedicated to documenting the referenced elements of the shows and movies.Logan 5 14:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) :::Sexuality is addressed in The Outcast, The Host and Rejoined. Also in the Mirror Universe, Ezri Dax was gay and Garak offered himself to Worf to which Worf responded 'you're not my type'. Jaf 12:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)Jaf ::::Which was because Worf misunderstood Garak's offer of help to be a sexual offer (maybe owing to the Regent's experiences with the Intendant). Which Garak adressed. Also, don't forget alternate Kira, who is openly bisexual. ::::Sexuality on Star Trek is usually dealt with during commercial breaks -- a brif definition of the subject, with the valid resources Jaf just mentioned referenced might be appropriate (perhaps as an article sex) -- but MA is a family site, and Star trek is a family show, so explicit descriptions that don't exist on Star Trek shouldn't be used or referenced here, either. ::::Certainly any "possibly" homosexual characters would not be valid to this article -- let's consider MA as "don't ask, don't tell" -- there's certainly no real canonical reason for any of us to assume Hawk or Chakotay or Malcolm was gay, as we never were given any indication of that in any episode or movie (also, there are many characters that were never specified as being heterosexual -- but we don't make additions to thair articles about how the writers failed to depict them as being straight, do we? :) -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:51, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC) *That is a fine solution. We can have Gender and Sexuality as sub-headings, we can also address the EMH's 'upgrades' and we can link this back to Reproductive system. And if there is any good info on Hawk or Chakotay we can toss it in the Background. Jaf 15:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)Jaf Removed (added): I removed this twice, the anonymous IP user who added it has been banned. :However, most people recognize this is an unconvincing and strained revisionist view, and the lack of homosexual relationships on Star Trek is more plausibly explained by the prevalent contemporary homophobia. ''(added): I'm explaining my reasoning rather than letting an edit war continue. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk *'This is not revisionist.' Star Trek has always been ambiguous about probably 90% of their characters sexual orientation. Most characters do not talk about sex, or sexual attractiveness, on a regular basis, except when part of a plot. The types of sexually themed plots in Star Trek are numerous, but still represent a minority of the overall character information avalable on MA. *'Unconvincing?' Not sure why we need this in an encyclopedic entry. If the explanation is unconvincing, we will fix it. Not label it as "unconvincing" **I added a new paragraph explaining the existance of behind the scenes information indicating that these subjects, at the time of most Trek productions, were taboo or controversial in American culture. Since it is not just homophobia, but also a taboo against other types of sex, both hetero, bi, trans, etc, i removed the word "homophobia" and used "taboo" (added): I wish i hadn't expounded in so much detail, the IP user chose to profane himself while i was composing the talk (i've been back at and away from the computer a few times this morning) -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk *I've added a link to a site which describes most of the nasty politics of the Lawyers and Paramount's involvement in TNG's flirtation with portraying gay couples. *Furthermore, I'm trying to balance content in this article to fit what has been seen onscreen and what went on behind the scenes of ''Star Trek itself'' -- I'm tired of being insulted and spoken to crudely because what has been portrayed on Star Trek doesn't meet someone's personal G/L/B/T view of sexuality. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 14:50, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC) I concur with Captainmike that it is not revisionist, unconvincing or strained. I would not so quickly dismiss, however, the cultural weight of our living in socially prescribed hetero-relational terrain as a very plausible explanation for reticence in identification of Queer/ LGB persons, or the portrayal of ongoing same-sex relationships. In other words, "prevalent contemporary homophobia", together with institutional heterosexism and hetero-relational assumptions may well all have played a very major role in the cautious approach to this subject; and beyond all doubt in my mind influence heavily bias and/ or discrimination against trans-gender persons and bisexual identity. That said, I very much applaud how progressive the various series' have been in the face of reactionary pressure. --Fenian 07:51, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC) In the Federation, a society who claims to be accepting of differences, people of different sexualities should logically be represented in at least some small way. Naturally, they would be a minority, but during the thousands of characters presented in the various Star Trek spinoffs, not ONE has been explicitly homosexual? That is a clear indication that real life politics and bigotry has interfered in the creative part of the star trek universe. I don't see why this can't be mentioned in this article? It is an obvious story "error" and those kinds of things are readily pointed out in countless other articles here on Memory Alpha. Granted, the comment was a little inflammatory, but still. Don't shove this issue under the carpet just because it happens to be a little uncomfortable to some people. Star Trek paints a utopian future for earth and I'd like to think that myself and all other gay people would have a place in that utopia.--Druj 06:40, 13 Mar 2007 Reference desk discussion:Gay people in the 23 - 25th centuries Just a question: Aside from the 'androgynous' species that occasionally titillate or terrorize the crews of different enterprises and voyagers, are there any examples of explicitly open and out gay people in any of the Trek series? Tasha Yar, might be a lesbian and Lt Barclay used to have gay tendencies, before he was "straightened" out in later episodes...and there is some homoerotic tension between Kirk and Spock in wrath of khan and The Search for Spock ("you are and shall always be my friend")...but are there others? It just seems strange that we can go through all the physics of Star Trek (which actually seems conceivable in the future), but somehow like we gay people sort of disappear after 2063. I think this is important, and as a test, can someone explain why the gay people disappear in Star Trek, WITHOUT refering to homophobic hollywood producers and directors? It ain't like gay people don't constitute like 90% of Trek's viewership! I didn't see any posts on this subject, so I apologize if someone has already said something about it. Rich :So you're wanting some sort of tech answer. Look no further than The Simpsons - injections every 10 minutes! :Who knows -- there have long been people agitating for it, but producers and others have put the kai-bash on it a number of times. There was of course , but we all know that wasn't really about it. In short, no it has not been openly addressed. And gay people as 90% of the Trek viewership? - please. I know that the GLBT community inflates their numbers, but that's a little ridiculous and self-important, even if the actual percentage is higher than general society (which wouldn't shock me one bit - just no way to determine it!) -- Dmsdbo 00:34, 5 May 2005 (UTC) :The Intendant (Kira) in DS9's mirror universe is lesbian/bisexual. Didn't she have sex with Leeta and Ezri as well as hit on her normal universe self? So, the only real gay people we've seen in Trek are in the evil mirror universe. In some of the expanded universe books, there have been gay characters. Someone made Hawk from Star Trek: First Contact gay and his ex-lover is on the USS Titan with Riker. While I would like to see a positive portrayal of gays on Star Trek, this is not how I would do it. Rob 02:48, 5 May 2005 (UTC) *In the original script of Star Trek First Contact, Hawk was going to be gay, but then Brannon Braga rejected the idea. (I think this was in the extra features in First Contact special edition). Originally, Tucker, Reed, or Mayweather was going to be gay, but then, again, the producers decided against it. With the popularity of gay characters on television today, it's not the "unheard of" thing it was in say, the 1960's. I'm sure if Enterprise went till 7 years, they would have made an episode on it eventually. Especially with the new writing. -AJHalliwell 02:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC) *I would very much like to see gay and lesbian characters as regulars in a future series. One thing that I would like to say to Rich, however, is that he seems to be perpeptuating a lot of stereotypes here: ::Tasha Yar, might be a lesbian :::Why? Because she is a strong and independent woman? ::Lt Barclay used to have gay tendencies :::Such as being nervious and awkward? ::there is some homoerotic tension between Kirk and Spock ... ("you are and shall always be my friend") :::Meaning that two men can only love one another if they are ''loving one another? :When Paramount finally allows gay characters to become the norm in the Star Trek universe, I hope they won't fall into the old predictable stereotypes. : T'Play(talk) 04:56, 9 May 2005 (UTC) **This topic is again under discussion at Memory Alpha:Ten Forward. Jaf 16:11, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)Jaf WTF? "Tasha Yar, might be a lesbian and Lt Barclay used to have gay tendencies, before he was "straightened" out in later episodes...and there is some homoerotic tension between Kirk and Spock in wrath of khan and The Search for Spock ("you are and shall always be my friend")..." I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that people in insane asylums had access to the internet. For reference If anyone needs it, I'm watching "The Host" (TNG). Here's the relevant dialogue between Kareel Odan and Dr. Crusher: Kareel: Is there to be nothing more? Crusher: Perhaps it is a human failing. But we are not accustomed to these kinds of changes. I can't keep up. How long will you have this host? What will the next one be? I can't live with that kind of uncertainty. Perhaps someday our ability to love won't be so limited. Kareel: I understand. Crusher: Odan, I do love you. Please remember that. (Kareel kisses Crusher's wrist) Kareel: I will never forget you. GarakBashir in DS9's "Past Prologue" I believe that Garak and Bashir's first meeting in Past Prologue counts as homosexuality...of sorts, if Bashir was female, it would have been obvious to everyone just what kind of 'company' from his new interesting friend Garak wanted. I am aware that Mr.Obsidian could be using sex as a tool to lure Bashir in, but if the incidents of female agents that hit on James Bond while making contacts counts as heterosexuality, than this counts as homosexuality. Especially if, Garak was hitting on Bashir in this scene, because he's an agent, than this will imply that Garak knows that Bashir has that kind of interest...Bashir did ask rather excitedly, over dinner with Sisko, how much of Curzon (the Old Man) is left in Dax. - Removed 2 I removed: :Although this is regarded as a personal choice in some cultures, various societies throughout history have discouraged various forms of homosexuality, or a wider range of non-reproductive sex, considering such diversions as a deviation from their biological norm. In Ancient Greece, homosexuality was considered a normal rite of passage, provided that one does not remain a /homosexual/(one who participates in same-sex relations to the exclusion of heterosexual relations). In Ancient Rome, homosexuality is again, accepted as a social norm, though to be a homosexual is not, and catamites are perceived as less manly than those who participates but do not receive (prison rules). In the East, along the Pacific, Japanese and Chinese society were tolerant of homosexuality and other 'non-reproductive sexual behaviour' until the influences of the West through contact with the Victorians, and the import of Western customs into mainland through The Great Leap Forward period. :''Modern dictatorships (post 19th century) tends to have extremely repressive laws upon homosexuality, (eg; Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia), regardless of public sentiments (China). States undergoing warfare or military tension also tends to be extremely repressive towards homosexuality and any non-reproductive sexual behaviour (restricting access to sex toys, contraceptives, pornography, and maybe even legislate against certain sexual positions; oral sex is illegal in Singapore). United State's anti-homosexuality stance was the strongest during the Cold War, where homosexuality within American borders was denounced as Communist behaviour....mirroring Soviet Russia's condemnation of homosexuality as a Capitalist behaviour. :''Today, most secular and/or diversity tolerant cultures accept these expressions, though some consider any sexual expression to be private and discourage public display or disclosure of an individual's sexuality. This has no relevance here. For this particular article, the background section should contain background notes on this and only this subject, as related to a particular citation or credible reference, and it should be about Star Trek. For example, in ''Trek: The Unauthorized Behind-The-Scenes Story of The Next Generation has a sizable discussion about the proposed script for TNG Season 1 that addresses homosexuality and AIDS, as well the repercussions and hypocrisies those involved faced or encountered as a result. --Alan del Beccio 22:08, 11 April 2007 (UTC) My contribution removed I've made a contribution yesterday only to have it removed in less than 24 hours. My addition to this section related to the Srivani in Voyager Scientific Method in regards to the nature of their race, where their scientists and doctors seemed devoid of any males. No one including the characters deduced that they were all exclusively females. I suppose everyone can offer their opinions such as perhaps their species of females are only allowed to be doctors and scientists, or perhaps their species only allows space travellers to be female, etc. It's Star Trek, anything is possible. To my knowledge, the storyline surrounding this species has never been discussed, and just as it is automatically assumed that all species that any star trek crew encounters are going to have similar opposite-gender coupling, I have to wonder why after all obvious evidence in this episode, it can not be assumed that this is a female only species. This would then make the species, or perceived to be (and I am using all possible terms) gay, lesbian, same-sex, androgenous, asexual. It is Star Trek after all. Yes, one can say that it does not relate to the story line, or is not an obvious fact. As I've explored this web site, there are many references of suppositions or deductions from story lines. How would this be any different? Thoughs please.BruceLd 18:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)BruceLD : See Talk:Srivani.--Tim Thomason 18:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)